Temples are not places of democracy

 Collated by Tusar Nath Mohapatra (b. 1956), The President, Savitri Era Party (2007) and The Founder, Savitri Era Religion (2006).

Mandirs need to be freed. “Freeing” means creating private trusts. Who will be trustees? Will all local Hindus have a say? How does Sampradaya-Jati map? Zero caste discrimination key including on archakas. Barring Dalits was also “tradition”. So that by itself is not good enough. Claim that “Agamas” only allow XYZ Jaati Archakas - so did the Agamas forbid Avarna Hindus entry into our Mandirs/temples? If they did, that changed so other things can also change. If they didn’t, why was that followed then? If that was not important enough either way, what is? How is Varna to be understood where nobody follows Smritis? (Read Kanchi Shankaracharya’s lament w.r.t this on the official website.) Plus when it suits - count temples’ resources. When it suits otherwise, then include small temples to say how many have Archakas from all Jaatis. Those who are saying why don’t you ask about mosques or churches, first of all to even “free” or denationalise or reprivatise (despite historical state linkages) existing government controlled temples - you need to create private trusts. Who will be the trustees is the question.. .. secondly, I care about Dharma as a Hindu. When there are Hindus fighting politically, socially and legally against caste based discrimination - I do not want our Mandirs to in anyway sanction that in the name of tradition at least going forward. The Sangh is working on models. What is telling is that a vocal section of the free temple activism (exceptions such as Sadhguru) not only are not providing concrete models for trust formation, they are actively working to entrench caste discrimination and reverse reform wherever possible. That is unacceptable. So let me end for now, tongue in cheek, by saying that those who want they can create their own new private temples. Temples already under state will be denationalised keeping in mind all of Hindudom, which by its very nature is pluralist. But caste need not be an axis thereof. https://twitter.com/harshmadhusudan/status/1723396310651531357?t=SfcE-ZUhwxl3aPVPrEb4qg&s=19

I am afraid I don’t agree with you here, @harshmadhusudan. Any private trust of Hindus would be better than the callous loot carried out by corrupt babus and politicians when the temples are under govt control. Go to ANY govt temple in the country and see only corruption, filth and complete disregard to the ordinary devotee. I come from Goa, where the temples are community controlled, and they are cleaner, better maintained and do more welfare activities for the community than ANY govt controlled temple! I come from a state where EVERY temple, big or small, is managed by the community and I have not seen cleaner, better managed, more beautifully kept temples ANYWHERE in India! See the temples in Goa first before you sing praises of govt control. One Vaishnodevi does NOT make for the 30,000 temples in TN where the premises are not even swept everyday! Neither is one Vaishnodevi entire India! What’s your point? https://twitter.com/ShefVaidya/status/1723709390291939597?t=MGaVC0tNenNCTSjXzvT3uw&s=19

Yes, but why would we do “any” private trust? We should think of how trustees get elected. You are thinking (rightly) of corruption and abuse, I am also thinking of potential of politicians to deepen new fault lines amongst Hindus. Let us not rush, let us evolve right mechanisms. What is the point of constantly saying “free” temples when we have no governance model in mind? The governance structure can be multitiered and can have an admin side and ritualistic side but who, how etc is the control done is an absolutely valid point of proper open discussion. Right now there are court cases in Kerala, TN etc about caste based discrimination in temples @ShefVaidya - anybody who wants to free temples must take a clear stand on these cases. Without that, it does matter who are the trustees. Any does not cut it. Sorry, I disagree as well. The free temple activism is not new. In all these years, one would think we would have a concrete proposal in front of us by now. Why escape the elephant in the room - which is very much caste based discrimination - let us put our views wrt that fairly and squarely on the table. 

https://twitter.com/harshmadhusudan/status/1723710541229920357?t=X0KbD4ndqQBNwTHa0OR8Ew&s=19

There is nothing wrong with a denominational temple that is managed by a private community based trust as long as the temple does not discriminate between the devotees. Let’s wait for a ‘proper mechanism’ has been the standard govt excuse to keep a stranglehold on temple money for over 75 years! Do you think other religions do not have fault lines? But they are given a free hand to manage their own places of worship. Are you saying Hindus are less capable then others? This bogey of ‘caste discrimination’ is just a convenient excuse to not let Hindus manage their own temples. https://twitter.com/ShefVaidya/status/1723934595652157506?t=DXiLjKFzHA9N324wqZ_OSQ&s=19

Given our history, Sampradāya has often (not always) been de facto Jaati. All traditions and puja-pranali-vidhi will be maintained even if all local Hindus get a say through the new private trust of a temple that was under government control. Just caste discrimination or theological separatism (like happened in Punjab) will be less likely. I want temples to be freed tomorrow but only if all local Hindus get a say. We can have exceptions for smaller temples. Depends on details. Why are you opposed to all Hindus having a say? Why are we not seeing any concrete proposal? Who really is slowing the freeing of our temples and for what motives? https://twitter.com/harshmadhusudan/status/1723936404735168944?t=sX9uh1NopWjGrnWPV9HaOg&s=19

It is actually the govt that is against giving up of Hindu temples to Hindus. Because when they see temples, they see huge cash reserves and land, that they can use any which way they want. No matter which party is in power, they do not want to give up temples. All this caste discrimination bogeyman is just that, a convenient excuse. I am absolutely fine with Chidambaram being managed by only the Dikshitars, as long as all Hindus enjoy the same right of worship. Why is that so difficult to understand? You are giving no solution, just raising that same old hoary chestnut of ‘caste fault lines’. I am absolutely fine with a temple that is managed only by a ST trust, as long as I am not discriminated against when it comes to worship! I have seen this model WORK! https://twitter.com/ShefVaidya/status/1723940687190851940?t=PbURxKeMVvlkioDPU1PtOw&s=19

There are cases going on about whether all Hindus can become priests. You think this is an excuse, but I fully support any such Hindu priest-petitioner that he should not be disqualified merely on birth. I do *not* think he would pollute the spiritual energy of a Mandir even though he would have all training and would follow all rituals. Let local Hindus decide, no matter my or your views. Why oppose? Let us free our temples. https://twitter.com/harshmadhusudan/status/1723946605651603633?t=Kbiq52QIHIKwNMcNQHbaFQ&s=19

Bridging the tradition - reform divide on priesthood is not that hard. Allow the new professionally trained priests to also carry out rituals without removing the existing hereditary priesthood. The apathy of devotees towards anything except their prayer and demands from the deity is the biggest obstacle to freeing temples from govt control. https://twitter.com/amargov/status/1723951345105875198?t=Cn5B-kn6rdKXpgp8dnfguA&s=19

Absolutely, no question of removing anyone. Everybody will be grandfathered. It is only for new appointments. Even then I am very sure any change in caste composition will be very gradual almost glacial. It is a matter of Dharmic principle. Not a hill worth dying on for Hindudom. https://twitter.com/harshmadhusudan/status/1723952433003401299?t=tdrV9qxFglTC-x2-sDef8g&s=19

Lone warrior fighting the battle for Hindu Dharma & it has always been like that, Harsh! See the lives of all the great ones who fought for lower castes, by birth discrimination, untouchability, temple entry....all were humiliated, abused. But Sri Krishna will bless you. https://twitter.com/LifeDivine108/status/1724245937927917636?t=hK-_paQ74ipo3lywigOTjQ&s=19

Not at all “lone warrior”, ma’am. Sangh as inheritors of Dharma Sangathan real warriors. Best abuse I got so far (ignoring anon handles) was from TR Ramesh ji - he called my views as agenda of “RSS-Vatican” in talk hosted by Anand. I told TR Rameshji RSS linkage is an honour :) This is not the first time that sir has compared RSS to the Vatican. Generally this intellectual group, let us call it that, compares the Sangh work to Protestantisation of Hindu Dharma. Here the Catholic reference has been added. We now wait for Orthodox reference, pun intended. https://twitter.com/harshmadhusudan/status/1724697281918849067?t=CeRbYW03Xsz6qmh8Wlmilw&s=19

As much as I respect some of Harsh's views, I think he is wrong on these matters. Most Hindus belong to a certain tradition or devata, meaning that their primary means to engage with the world and the larger Hindu/Vedic world is from a particular perspective of beliefs and practices. While yes there can be and often is some overlap of traditions/practices it isn't at the exclusion of the primary one.  As to the temple argument, temples are not places of democracy they are places of samkalpa meaning that the temple or tirtha exists in that location in that form for a particular purpose and usually the sthala puranas provide that reasoning.  The temple is not simply a social/cultural/political place but a place of particular spiritual artha. The puranas and agamas provide us the context for the meaning of the temple and how the temple should be. We cannot nor should we discount those, they should be the central means to engaging and understanding the mandir/kovil/temple. https://twitter.com/raghman36/status/1724178568572498119?t=uzNymlTje-6ohAOTO_rL6Q&s=19

This applies only to certain communities. Most communities follow their ishta and don't have hereditary associations. Kula devata is different. There can be a Shiva devotee and Krishna bhakta in the same household whose Kula devata is a version of Kali. https://twitter.com/SpiritWithBody/status/1724403031859667286?t=EkKacsHP_7o3i-Dw7pEymw&s=19

I can’t make any comments on other sampradayas or India, but I do know that ISKCON heavily rejects anything that isn’t Krishnaite. Although they seem to have an alliance with Hindutva. To them Kali, Ganesh and Shiva are “demigods”, Buddhism is shunyavad. Shankara is mayavad. https://twitter.com/theologyboi/status/1724520834541469944?t=FyMEY2GjXW3BerDXGh9niw&s=19

Mukunda, your claim: “Most Hindus belong to a certain tradition or devata” Is, with respect, completely false. 70%+ of adult Indian Hindus (Pew, 2019-20) do *not* belong to a certain tradition or deity. Majority, like me, is de facto Smartha (in a Panchayatana Puja sense.) Wrt temples, I discussed it in detail with @ARanganathan72 yesterday for 2 hours. Your representation of my views is not correct. I will write/discuss about them again on some platform. Thank you. https://twitter.com/harshmadhusudan/status/1724251451176992872?t=c84WynPu8Q9iu0MFdrqxYw&s=19

You get saying that you are Smarta indicates that you belong to a particular tradition, which maybe different from tantrika, vaishnava, shakta, vedika and so on. If you hold a kula, grama, ishta devata in preference there are clear traditions and practices connected, which also have associated ideas about the other deities, traditions, and ideas.  That screenshot you provided indicates only that people don't know the name of a sect, tradition, matha, peetham, temple, or practice they belong to, not that they don't themselves practice something that does belong to a sect, tradition, matha, temple, or practice.  My claim isn't false in fact if you delve beyond the surface it is pretty well understood and attested.  I look forward to your position in regard to temples being put forth. https://twitter.com/raghman36/status/1724290634415300751?t=0B1ZiaB0PQid9srVOAR3hw&s=19

Harsh is simply stating that caste based discrimination in every aspect of Temples activities from rituals to management must end. Rest other criteria for selection of pujaris, management remains... only by birth discrimination must end. @raghman36 https://twitter.com/LifeDivine108/status/1724255521514135695?t=B7AT0mTxJ562CaHoUD38tA&s=19

Radical H reformer hot takes this week:

- Hindu Metaphysics is distinct from spiritual. Gita is teen spirit rebellion

- Hindus are a civilization but not a community

- Hindus are morally incapable of managing temples

- ICM by State for 'emotional integration' - Final solution

https://twitter.com/Anviksiki/status/1723967646377423059?t=CHC7lWrCtHbMfPpLTSyTGQ&s=19

Spiritual is always the greatest rebellion - Cause we are rebelling against the lower tendencies. Our new age radical creatives think that Gita is shrouded in spiritualism (whatever that means) and that Krishna just used Metaphysics to convince Arjuna not that it is TRUTH. https://twitter.com/Anviksiki/status/1723970732235850146?t=BGmR5Z7V0e7V1KjLWSMPIw&s=19

If repeating Veer Savarkar's arguments make @harshmadhusudan "radical", one wonders what is Savarkar ji. Savarkarism is not Neo-Hindutva. From Aurobindo Ghosh to Sachin Sanyal, Alluri to S.Vivekananda, every Hindu Revivalist is a Hindu reformer. https://twitter.com/Bharata_Govinda/status/1725235735249256651?t=K6Ge0GeWiLoYmxL_lIg5sQ&s=19

Indian Americans who are Republicans have a job on their hand. Belief in Khalistan is not religious but rather violent separatist ideology. It’s a few extremist diaspora nuts who are bent on exporting India hate to Punjab. https://twitter.com/samas777/status/1724950844150346057?t=N_YWFBPq44brFBzuMRwzog&s=19

Savitri Era Party: Emerson, Baldwin, Chomsky, and Sri Aurobindo

savitrieraparty.blogspot.com/2023/11/emerso…

Collated by Tusar Nath Mohapatra (b. 1956), The President, Savitri Era Party (2007) and The Founder, Savitri Era Religion (2006).

Savitri Era of those who adore,

Om Sri Aurobindo & The Mother.